Tuesday, December 12, 2006

Am I being anal? You can tell me...

I posted this on the 7YW Yahoo Group today.


I wonder if anyone could perhaps clarify for me whether or not the Saxon Infantry wore collared coats during the 7YW?

If I may, let me take you through the reasons for my confusion.

Older visual references (Funcken, Mollo and the Knotel(?) cigarette cards on the Grosser-Generalstab website*) all show the collarless coat. This might be fair enough, but I think that they might all be working from Knotel. I do not know this for sure, but this is my feeling. My Knotel, Knotel and Seig does not confirm this one way or the other.

Newer visual references such as my Pengel and Hurt and my copy of Sapherson show the Saxons in a collared coat. Again, I think Sapherson is relying on Pengel and Hurt for his information which in turn seems derived from an illustration from 1753.

My most recent and up to date reference is Wolfgang Friedrich's "Die Uniformen der Kurfurstliche Sachsischen Armee 1683-1763". It shows collars appearing on the Infantry coats from 1742 onwards, appearing in the plates describing the uniforms for 1756 and 1760.
Is it true that there was generally a collar on the Saxon infantry uniform that did not appear on the uniforms issued to the newly reconstituted corps of infantry after Pirna? Was the collar re-introduced when the uniform changed (ie, bearskins were added) in 1760?

Is Knotel (and those who have used him since as a source) wrong? Or was Knotel right and relying on sources that may not have survived the destruction of Dresden in WW2?

Is it even possible to be so precise at two and a half centuries distance?

Any light that could be shed would be most welcome!

Best regards,

Greg Horne

*possibly the most popular, referenced and readily available visual reference available on the Saxon army on the Internet!


marinergrim said...

No I don't think so.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to clarify the correctness of the various sources.


Anonymous said...

Try this link, albeit it is for th e Saxon Army of 1745.


Also, I think that your Austrian artillery crew coats are too dark, so I'm assuming that you based this on the Mollo book, which has the wrong color. The coat should be a very light "fawn brown" during the SYW.

Bloggerator said...

I wish I knew what sources Mr royalfig was working from! I really do.

I bought the Austrians on a whim, 2nd hand.

Anyone have any thoughts on Knotel's reliability? Many think he's solid dolg, whereas I have yet to form my opinions.

marinergrim said...

I use the ryoalfig site a lot although I do have some problems with his interpretation of some of the uniforms. The german regiments in the French service he has in a sky blue coat where everyone else has them in a dark blue coat.

Still it is a great site.

Bloggerator said...

By the way, that "solid dolg" was meant to be "solid gold"!

I love the royalfig site it's a dolg-mine.


Bluebear Jeff said...


While I personally don't care whether they had collars or not (and have no knowledge of the matter), I think that one of the wonderful aspects of our hobby is that it has so many different aspects. We have research, painting, gaming, terrain-making, etc. . . . all of which are valid areas of interest.

Hopefully someone can give you a definitive answer . . . but if not, go with your best guess and be confident in the knowledge that no-one else knows for sure either.

-- Jeff

Bloggerator said...

Hey Jeff,

We'll see, we'll see...

For now I'm happy to be making terrain for my Napoleonic side-track.

I suppose it could all stand in for Italian scenery for some War of the Austrian Succession battles, too.